@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle honestly, you're talking about capitalism propaganda if it was even a thing. Or if there was anything else beyond various forms of capitalism.

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

This is not #Capitalism:
https://www.nomadelfia.it/eng/ 😉

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

And #capitalism has #powerful #propaganda: we call it #marketing.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle does it scale to 7 billion people? I doubt that.

As for your other reply, I consider myself a philosophical zombie. If I suddenly cease to exist and a perfect copy of me is placed instead, would anyone know a difference? Nope!

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> does it scale to 7 billion people? I doubt that.

I know you doubt that.

As for me, I simply don't know.
And honestly I find it surprising it's a community of more of 300 adults that lived this way for 80 years and yet 3 generations.
And guess why I find it surprising? Because I'm fed of capitalistic #propaganda just like you. I'm just aware of the it.

So maybe it would scale much better than #capitalism.
We simply do not know. 1/

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> I consider myself a philosophical zombie.

The #Oppression is strong with you.

The basic goal of any #totalitarism is to deprive #oppressed of the ability to even think objections to the oppressive assumptions, even when they face blatant logical contraddiction.

Here an example:

> If I suddenly cease to exist and a perfect copy of me is placed instead, would anyone know a difference? Nope!

Except, maybe.. you? 😉

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle but if another person looks like me, acts like me, feels like me, aren't they as much me as I am?

@newt
No, they aren't: you can't make an exact copy of a quantum system without destroying (altering) the original. Approximate copy — yes.
@Shamar

@amiloradovsky @Shamar is there a proof that consciousness is necessarily a quantum system?

@newt
No. Proofs may only be performed with a precisely defined notions, but consciousness isn't one of those now.
On the other hand, there is so-called Integrated Information Theory (#IIT), which aims to define it more or less rigorously.
@Shamar

@amiloradovsky @Shamar that's basically what I meant. Even if consciousness is quantum based, there's no way to inspect the quantum state, and I suppose there's no need because consciousness constantly changes. Myself today is different from yesterday. So it doesn't really matter.

@newt
My point was about copying: the only way to make an exact copy of something is to take the original…
And those minor differences matter: the evolution of such an unstable system must be very sensitive to the initial conditions (see the chaos/ergodic theory).
The change in time is not really a change of state (in a mechanical sense): e.g. pendulum is moving in time (swinging), although it's "state" stays the same, as long as nobody touches it.
@Shamar

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Let's suppose that I convince you that it is. Worse, let's suppose that you actually got conviced that you have no identity on yourself (something we know it's the only sure statement we can do from Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum", but... #marketing is #powerful).

Now let's suppose that I show you an exact SOFTWARE emulation of you. You yourself cannot see a difference.

And then I tell you "shutdown one of you"....

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

.. you chose to preserve the immortal software copy (because I don't tell you it's an emulation, I tell you it's your concience in a virtual reality) and kill yourself.

Then I stop the emulator, swap the data and proceed with the next undesired slave.

Whenever one of your friends or loved ones come here, I show them your emulation (that is unaware of having been swapped out meanwhile) and the simulator tell them to join your Eden.

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Sadly, this is not something that a particularly creative Sci-Fi author ideated for a new best seller.

This is something people make is trying to sell right now.

And guess what?

People would even pay to be killed this way! 😂

That's what I mean with #capitalism internalization: you could even sacrify your own #life, to preserve the #oppression for the sake of the #oppressors!

Great work! 😉

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle you're boring

@newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

... discovery of your own mind, but a deep environmental conditioning whose goal is to accept you are a thing to be used.

So to answer your question, when we will be able to "mass produce" slaves, slaves will be killed if defective (just like you accept to do with ill kids, elders or embryo).

They will be the dumb and quiet heirs of the poor of today and will serve as paria with no right the heirs of the riches of today.

Is it what you want?

@Shamar @newt @Wolf480pl @noelle
> just like you accept
within some extreme cases
no one is saying abortion shouldn't be controlled or there shouldn't be a cap for how old the embryo can be
or that it's good when someone has to choose it
but yeah, you wouldn't sacrifice someone to save someone else, i would. it would have to be a pretty dire situation but i would.
i have nothing else to add

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle this is a nonsense. Abortion and other forms of birth control are a technical progression, not capitalist per se. They simply replace the previously-widespread (and pre-capitalist) practice of infanticide with something tidier.

As for the rest, you're imposing a duty to reproduce, not protecting a right to. Reproductive choice is enhanced by technology, but more so by the end of notions like you or I deciding whether someone must bear a child

@lupine @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> As for the rest, you're imposing a duty to reproduce, not protecting a right to.

Read more carefully.

I'm not proposing to impose anything. There are several effective anticonceptions techniques out of there and even a couple of fully secure ones, if you don't want to reproduce.

I THINK that #killing a #human is NEVER a human behaviour.

But, I'm STATING that treating humans as things is not #freedom: it's the #oppression of #capitalism.

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle and none of them are 100% effective, even when used 100% properly (which is generally difficult). Even abstinence.

By denying abortion, you are imposing a duty to reproduce in the cases where earlier interventions fail.

Human meat with the potential to become a person has no right to life, and reproductive control is not capitalist oppression.

@lupine @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Well... if you include #Mary mother of #Jesus Christ in the compute, I will agree that abstinence used properly is not 100% effective. 😂

> #Human meat...

There's no such thing.

Or, if you prefer, you are human meat just like an embryo. Both of you have the same rights to life.
Your choice.

But so far, no argument provided has shown a real difference between an embryo and a #white #male like you.
Only difference is in current productivity.

@lupine @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> reproductive control is not capitalist oppression

Sure, it's not.

But #abortion is not reproductive control, it's killing a #human.

Once you accept to kill one human, you can accept to kill others.

It's just matter of finding the proper #narrative and #propaganda.

Who's next?

#Poors? #Fat? #Black? #Trans? #Cyberpunk? #Christians? #Muslim? Low #IQ ones? High IQ ones?

Who?

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle fortunately, the idea that a fetus has moral equivalence is losing favour everywhere. This makes your nightmare scenarios less likely, as we can focus on the real distinctions between aggregates of human meat with moral standing, and those without.

Although we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that bigotry needs an internally-consistent worldview to thrive. It does perfectly fine without one.

@lupine @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Actually it was Freire (if I remember correctly), that noticed how #oppressed who have fully internalized the #oppression cannot challenge it anymore...

Fine. I'm not your enemy.

I won't throw you away as you would do with other "human meats" when you will stop to produce and consume.

Others will, possibly with your own consent. But not me.

Good luck for your own #purchases! 😉

@Shamar @newt @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle sexual control is distinct from reproductive control, and many people do not have it. So yes, abstinence is not 100% effective. But it's by the by, since "oops" abortions have moral equivalence. There's no reason to avoid abortions in general.

I am definitely human meat, just like an embryo. Being human meat does not generate moral standing - that way lies absurdity, and as noted at the very start of this thread, is a modern invention