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please let's put that cursed thing where it belongs

in the trash

@lumi meh all my friends are on discord, little chance i could convince them to switch off of it, so i'll keep using it for the time being

@pyromage i understand ♥

at least we're not arguing about where it belongs

@lumi cant til I find a reasonable alternative honestly

@pry for most of its functionality: look at xmpp

for the rest: soon™

@pry tbh i think the biggest thing is where people are

discord would not be valuable without its users

it wouldnt have gotten so big without their pretty religious hype squad

their strength is being able to use your friends against you, and more than anything else, that's the reason i hate it so much

@pry @lumi aye, unfortunately it's the same problem that facebook has, everyone uses it because everyone else uses it

@yisraeldov @pry I prefer xmpp but sure it is an alternative

neither seem satisfactory for the average user though...

@Akio @yisraeldov @pry telnet with end-to-end encryption

so ssh is best chat protocol

@Akio @pry @lumi Does xmpp keep a history of the chat ? I don't remember that it did group chat well either, or provided good encryption.

@yisraeldov @Akio @pry it can keep history on the server side but i have that module disable as i don't like the concept and want to stay away from it

it does have good e2e encryption via OMEMO

@lumi @Akio @pry Ok, well the history is an important feature for keeping everyone up-to-date when you are working with a team, so people can see what they missed when they are offline, I think this is one of the reasons that irc falls short.

@yisraeldov @Akio @pry yeah, my opinion on it is mixed

bounded chat history is probably a good compromise

@lumi the problem is we need some good, open source and decentralized alternative for it, cause these don't really exist

@selfisekai @lumi IRC! Discord is the latest IRC knock off they all come and go, but IRC has been around since the dawn of time (1989) and it's not going anywhere

@ocean
@selfisekai @lumi
hardest thing in irc imo is images since dcc isn't viable anymore
most everything else can be done through extensions

@ocean @selfisekai @lumi IRC isn't a discord replacement until it integrates voice as a first class citizen alongside text chat.

That's coming from a big IRC fan.

@kline @selfisekai @lumi Ehhh IRC isn't a discord replacement because discord came about 20 years after IRC did

IRC is good because it doesn't try to do everything
it does it's one thing and it does it well, very unix-y

@ocean @selfisekai @lumi yeah, it's ace, but because of those choices it will never beat discord.

@kline @selfisekai @lumi Until about 10 years from now when Discord is dead and some other chatting service is the new popular one and the cycle repeats it's self all over again

@ocean @selfisekai @lumi sure, but it'll probably have a much more integrated experience than IRC, still.

Whatever the pros and cons for relatively technical users, the discord audience don't care.

They want integrated voice, chat, and fun social spaces with minimal cost, financial and effort. IRC will never be that, and that's why discord has absolutely smashed IRC/Jabber and TeamSpeak/Vent/Mumble use in gaming.

@ocean @lumi @selfisekai @kline Aaaah... discord... yeah, well... the thing about Discord (I know I already mentioned this a couple of times) is that it offers what the common consumer demands. It supports text chat, video chat, audio chat, support for multimedia sharing like images, audio and video, it's very easy to use, you can easily join random "guilds" and meet people there, etc. It does that well and it does that in a way that it's somewhat fun to use and doesn't scare their userbase.

IRC on the other hand is stuck in the mid 80s and 90s and only offers text chat. Which is fine for what it does, but the common consumer needs way more than that nowadays. Also making a text-based protocol is really easy.

XMPP aimed to be the evolution of IM protocols, but turned out to not be that great, and there are other projects now like Matrix, etc, that wants to be Discord, but are not.

It's going to take a long while until someone figures out what the users really want and does it right.
@proxeus @ocean @kline @lumi @selfisekai conjecture: if you NEED more than text something has gone horribly wrong. wanting it is fine but needing it? nah.

@proxeus @lumi @ocean @selfisekai @jeff bruh just

1) open your browser
2) upload the image to another 3rd party service that may collapse at any time
3) copy and paste that url to your audience
4) have them open their browsers
5) copy and paste that url
6) chuckle at the pepe you just uploaded

e z

@kline @jeff @selfisekai @ocean @lumi

How about:

1) "Drag and drop" your file
2) Don't make anyone go through that hassle, it's already done and served

Also I don't do stupid 4chan memes

@proxeus @lumi @ocean @selfisekai @jeff I'm saying all those points are a bad user experience, I was hoping it was a dumb enough list of steps as to not need the direct comparison to the integrated solution I've been a proponent of this entire thread.

@proxeus @lumi @ocean @selfisekai @jeff guess I was wrong, huh, teaches me to attempt to engage with a bit of humour on the fediverse

@kline @selfisekai @ocean @lumi They did, but it looks as if nobody else figured out, specially in the FOSS community. Everyone is focusing in the UNIX philosophy of "universal text interface" and "do one thing and do it right", which are nice and work well with US, but what consumers want is one thing that does many things, does them correctly and makes them easy and fun to use. It's a different concept that DIscord got right, but nobody else has figured out yet.

@proxeus @lumi @ocean @selfisekai no no, foss gets it, they just dont care.

foss doesn't care about catering for gamers, etc, foss is overwhelmingly written for and used by other foss developers.

@kline @selfisekai @ocean @lumi Yes but this world is not only about developers. Developers work for regular users. That's something some developers will never ever get to understand.

@proxeus @lumi @ocean @selfisekai well, I mean, foss devs can do whatever they want. That's the beauty of it.

It's not that they don't get it. IRC devs understand why normal people don't use IRC, just they don't care. They're not the target audience.

@proxeus @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai if using a computer in the most basic way is such a problem for users, they should avoid computers at all.
@lucy @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai The most basic way to use a computer is through a graphical interface, and I refuse to support the idea that just because some people refuse to learn everything about a computer should be excluded in the year 2020 when literally everything is a computer.
@proxeus @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai you realize that all UI is build on top of a system that's designed with CLI in mind?
@lucy @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai Like Winblobs was designed with a CLI in mind? Whoops! I think that statement is not right. In fact the CLI on Winbows is shit, its completely focused on its GUI. Same as OSX, although it has nice unix-like commands.

Why do they do that? Because their user base doesnt want to waste years learning "magic words" to do something they can do easily with an UI. And thats NOT wrong, its just that everyone should have access to a computer without the need to spend years learning about them.

Dont ask the doctor to also be an expert on computers, Id rather have him being an expert in his field.
@proxeus @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai the way windows handles running software and passes arguments is not cli-based? most gui stuff does only execute the real commands, so gui is just an extension.
@proxeus @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai it's about responsibility. if you need years to learn simple commands, what is even wrong with you? it's not rocket science
@lucy @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai One simple command? Or 200 commands? Needless to say, applications/commands such as grep, iptables, etc, are extremely convoluted for someone who maybe is a mechanic, or a doctor, or a plumber.
@iii @kline @lucy @lumi @ocean @selfisekai The advantages of CLI is that its way more flexible than a GUI for specific tasks, and thats it. Its also cheaper resource-wise and if you run a server, you dont need an UI. But if you do graphic design, to put an example, you do need an UI.
@lucy @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai btw Xerox invented the first user interface in the early 80s. Its not a new thing and it has been in the mind of everyone for a very long time for a reason. So you should stop pretending everything that is text is "superior" because you think its cool and "h4xxorz l0l".

Text based interfaces have their use as everything does, but doesnt fullfill all the needs everyone has. Also stop pretending that everyone who doesnt have your needs is inferior and has no rights to access the same technology we use.
@proxeus @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai well, the point is that you don't use the same technology. also, I'm not against graphical user interfaces. I just think it's lazy to avoid CLI-based software. it's the equivalent to "I don't want to cook in 2020, there's frozen/fast food everywhere now"
@lucy @kline @lumi @ocean @selfisekai

> the way windows handles running software and passes arguments is not cli-based?

Not quite. The way it handles it doesnt have anything to do with CLI.

> most gui stuff does only execute the real commands

What!? No!!

GUI programs make calls to an API that acts as an intermediate between the kernel and your program. At least thats how it works on Windows. I dont see how thats CLI oriented as you stated, neither I get your point on that. For instance, to run a new process:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/processthreadsapi/nf-processthreadsapi-createprocessa

On Linux you can use syscalls directly if you want, but most applications rely on libc or something similar anyways, so its also an API.

Whoever uses system() should burn in hell. CLI based commands only work as long as the systems are configured in the exact same way
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