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Try not to be mean to Arch Linux users as the wiki lacks a page on handling social rejection.

i use arch btw

@eskuero It's okay. I think I'm the only one on here that uses :gentoo: unironically.

@djsumdog I'm the other one that Gentoo's unironically. ^5 @eskuero

@K @djsumdog if you have so much cpu cycles to spare I'll gladly take some :')

@eskuero Just install Gentoo, then you'll understand.
@karolat @djsumdog @eskuero Oh fuck YES. No systemd, no pulseaudio, I can even go deeper and strip out yet more Gnome stack shit that nobody needs. All native compiled, using minimal memory and with maximum performance.

Sarry but that's mah trigger :)
@K @djsumdog i want to understand! why wouldn't you not want that stuff? what do you use instead?

@karolat @K I use pulse .. it use to be pretty buggy, but I've found it's stable now, is great if you use bluetooth or USB audio, and is way better than esound, arts, and all that other rubbish that came before.

Gentoo uses OpenRC. It's okay, but I prefer runit, which can be found on :voidlinux: It's incredibly simple.

I like NetworkManager too, and wish we just had standard service file definitions without the rest of systemd. Automount targets seem nice, but they don't work out in reality.

@karolat You can run Linux with an absolute minimal bare set. What all the major distro's push is "here take just about everything because you might need it". systemd (do I need to explain?) is not wanted. Pulseaudio is an abomination and Lennart's webpage on it used to headline with "I will break Linux audio". He did. Everything works just fine with plain ALSA (and apulse for the very few apps that need it, so far 1). You can go deeper and strip out consolekit and polkit, everything still "just works fine" using other existing tools in that *already solved the problems that Lennart/Gnome then cures*.

But the main point is, with Gentoo you can strip or add as far as you want to go. It's the last outpost against the Gnome funded onslaught against Linux.
@K hmm would you mind explaining? i never quite understood the systemd thing either

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@karolat @K Lots of reasons. Pottering kinda forced it into the ecosystem, and it grew to encompass everything (xinit, mounts, replacing consolekit /w logind) I still think the CLI is garbage (e.g. systemctl restart doesn't even give you output). If it were just an init system, you could reuse the target files and every distro could implement their own service manager. It's too difficult to re-implement though. There are some good ideas, but they're all or nothing lock-ins to the whole stack

@karolat @K "The Tragedy of systemd" is a great talk about the need for a system layer, and having a system layer does make sense. But in the OS world it work also make sense to have NetworkManager + a login manager + pam + automounter + service supervisor all connected via dbus with a common API, not a single program with 100 modules, none of which can be (easily) swapped out.

@karolat @K I watched this particular version from BSDCan :freebsd: 🇨🇦 , but yea it's the same guy. Should be the same talk:

youtube.com/watch?v=6AeWu1fZ7b

@djsumdog I also found the idea of a system layer quite intriguing mostly because I'm not convinced it can be implemented in a less destructive manner. I really don't know if a different approach could be less _systemd_ (used as an epithet) by trying to solve the same problem(s).
@djsumdog @karolat @K
>none of which can be (easily) swapped out
if you're on linux you already have a kernel that can't be swapped out (too many programs rely on linux specific api), you have one X implementation every one uses, you have on standard c library, and many other things that can be easily changed
@karolat @k to spare specifics, it's about history. systemd is made with Windows/Apple philosophy, while GNU (and Linux to a degree) is made with Unix philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

People nowadays "install linux" like they're installing Windows, they want everything to just work and not have to interact with their OS. Systemd is a medication for this symptom
@why @karolat @K systemd is actually very close to the unix philosophy, at least much more than the kernel. remember that systemd isn't a program, but just a project that encapsulates various utilities, every one of them been actually very independent of the init system (that's why you can have systemd programs running without systemd, like some people use to get gnome running on non-systemd distros)
@dirb @K @karolat @why kek, well memed friend, check your bank account
@orekix @dirb @K @why if gentoo is for getting rid of bloat how come everyone posts a neofetch right after they install it? hmm?!?!
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@dirb @why @karolat @K This, I don't really get the reason why people hate systemd so much
>muh UNIX philosophy
then stop using GNU, Linux, all the BSD distros, X server, any of those complected package managers, web browser, modern cpus or how about we stop using computers altogether? non of them follow UNIX philosophy.
>People nowadays "install (GNU+)linux" like they're installing Windows, they want everything to just work and not have to interact with their OS
What's wrong with expecting your computer to just work?

I don't use systemd, pulse, avahi, cups, pam, openssl on my computer and have removed dbus support from most of the programs that work without it. Just because I can and that's my choice, It doesn't make systemd or cups or pam any worse. I use a lot of those programs on my work computer and other servers that I have to manage. To be honest, systemd isn't that bad, sure it has some issues, but which program do you think is 100% perfect?
@rms How do you go from >muh UNIX philosophy to "ok let's stop using computers entirely! ..?!? It's a fucked up start to your pronouncement from on high to begin with. It also shows a complete lack of understanding of the shit Poettering leaves behind. He hates standardised documentation. Pulseaudio documentation is a shit show, mostly on an out dated website, and when you do drill down to module specific settings, even modules written bu the man himself are undocumented. You have setting with no reference to what they are! ms? bytes? who the fuck knows? You really want that class of programmer responsible for not just your init system, but everything else he's swallowed up and stuffed in to systemd? It took about a decade of mostly other people sorting out the Pulseaudio mess before it became the "it's ok I live with it" thing that it is today, and even then it only suits single sound card users who don't give a shit about variable latency. Hang up your RMS account, you ain't it.
@K @rms I don't why most of the critics on systemd end up on personal critics on lennart. sure he doesn't seem like a nice people to with, like most of the big open source project leaders, but those are now to big to be the work of a single person.
@dirb @rms so first we take away the valid argument that it's not "muh UNIX philosophy", and I give you other additional reasons to dislike it. Then you say it seems like a personal attack.
It's part of a well financed Gnome stack that keeps pushing bug ridden, security holed software on to the Linux stack. The Gnome stack tends to be exclusive, you can't ask Debian/Ubuntu to not install systemd, and most of the software removes user control of the system and replaces it with what the Gnome team think you want instead.
"But MUH new users!"
Who cares?
GNU/Linux was good because it had fantastic "hackability", reliability, security and it *wasn't* like Windows. GNU/Linux is gradually turning in to Gnome/Linux and Gnome/Linux is getting closer and closer to the same lack of user choice, same bug fest, same security nightmare that Windows provides. Before if you found a security bug in DNS, you had relatively small chunks of relatively well document code to patch, and relatively easy channels to discuss and get a fix implemented. Now you don't really stand a chance of patching it if you aren't in the Gnome team, it's badly documented, and more often than not seems to get a "won't fix", even if the new behaviour is significantly worse than pre-systemd behaviour.

But none of this matters. Because people who have decided Gnome/Linux isn't so bad, will continue to believe that, most likely because they don't realise what they are signing away in to history while they do it. Bring on corporate financed Linux YAY! Because: "It's not so bad".
@K @rms
First, gnome isn't pushing anything. systemd started to be widely use before gnome started to heavily rely on it.

>"But MUH new users!"
>Who cares?
People who want to see Linux grow and don't be a stagnated and old platform, like some of the bsd

>User choice
I don't know why people bring this a lot when we don't really have a choice on many things anyways. How many distros support other kernel than linux? How many support other common replaced libraries, like musl or libressl? Why nobody complains that we now only have on implementation of the X server when used to be many? How about another OpenGL implementation other than Mesa? And no long before people were okay only having one complete C compiler. Do you why it's? Because those projects are complex and only a handful of people are on them, also some of them require heavy cooperation between each other, Xorg, Wayland and Mesa are basically developed by the same people, you can't just swap out one part of them to leave room for user choice. Systemd is giving distros a base common subsystem, no just a init system, and that something no other project is trying to do, and if somebody did, it won't be trivially swap one for the other, leaving the distros to chose on or the other, like they do for the kernel.

>hackability
It's much more easy to read or write a service unit file than figuring out what a init script do
@dirb @rms "GNOME has a close relationship with systemd. A number of systemd features originated in the GNOME project, and ongoing collaborations ensure effective integration with this core technology", which is why systemd can decide to do things like kill running screen sessions if you log out of the desktop. Because Gnome wanted it. Even Gnome say it's a core technology of the Gnome stack.

Then there's the derp of "we only have gcc, and one X", so why not make everything single choice! YAY. Progress! (not).

We had choices in network manager / init system / DNS resolution / boot loader / mount systems / logging / cron options. systemd intends to remove all those choices (and run them under PID 1 which is a fucking terrible idea!)

A neat service file doesn't make systemd worth it. There are other init systems with easy to use init scripts.

But like I said. You've already made up your mind. And like I said, I think that's because you don't fully understand what you are happily embracing or what it flushes down the toilet.
@K @dirb It really tells about all the distributions that went with systemd, why did they choose systemd if it was *that* bad.
Here's what Debian has to say:
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd
@K @rms
>GNOME has a close relationship with systemd
Both are Redhat projects, so that's obvious. I hadn't have the behavior you're describing on KDE, I suppose it's a Gnome+systemd thing.

My point wasn't about why "single choice" it's a good thing, but why it exists.

>We had choices in network manager / init system / DNS resolution / boot loader / mount systems / logging / cron options. systemd intends to remove all those choices
systemd doesn't try to remove them, but to create version of them that work together with each other

>(and run them under PID 1 which is a fucking terrible idea!)
I see that you're the one who doesn't know what you're taking about
@K @dirb
>We had choices in network manager / init system / DNS resolution / boot loader / mount systems / logging / cron options
We still have all the choices, just don't use a distro that respects your choices. My whole point is, not everyone cares about such choices (I personally do, and it's the reason why I use Gentoo). Most people are just fine with whatever comes preinstalled with a distro and something works for the most part, and I see no reason to think it's bad.
@rms @K @dirb computers went wrong the moment they were made for niggers
@K @dirb Also, Lennart isn't the only person working on systemd, it's a redhat project. And anyone is free to make changes/improvements as it's a free software.
About the GNOME's dependency on systemd, there's doesn't seem to be any solid reason to do this, but again, it's redhat. Similarly most of GNU programs require GCC and GNU autotools to compile.
On the other hand systemd isn't really a hard compile time dependency for GNOME, there's a patched version of GNOME available for Gentoo and Funtoo that works without systemd.
@rms @dirb @why @karolat @k if software just works I love it when it does fug the dev team for breaking my computer. I am looking at you Microsoft.
@rms @why @karolat @K my only problem with the systemd hate is that missguide new people. sure removing systemd, pulse, dbus, openssl, etc. just because you can it's fun. but when people preach it to new users and the follow, they mostly end up with unusable system and wondering why linux is so broken
@karolat Expert troll level achievement unlocked.
@K i'm only teasing a little--i really don't know! the most i've used are ubuntu and manjaro very briefly
@karolat @k Systemd is filled with exploits and replaces a thing that has no need to be replaced, attempting too-hard to create a Windows-like enviornment in UNIX. Even without all the UNIX-Purism, there are hundreds of "WontFix" and "It's a feature, not a bug" problems in systemd. Systemd is a cancer being forced on the user. It fails as an init system, and has a million + 1 needless features, all of which can be exploited. It's why I use Devuan, the Systemd-free fork of Devuan
@karolat Yes, made by the DNG group in collaboration with The UNIX Sysadmin group. https://devuan.org
@K @djsumdog @eskuero @karolat but you call have all of those thing in gentoo too anyways

@karolat @K @eskuero I like Gentoo. I've used it since 2002 or 2003 I think, minus a brief period when I ran a hackintosh. It's on my desktop, laptop and file server, and they all run auto-updates every night.

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