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People : "discord is bad, why is there no alternative?"
Internet : tox.chat jami.net
People : "WHY IS THERE NO ALTERNATIVE???"

@cesese is tox an alternative? last i checked you couldn't use it over multiple devices, which is a big limitation compared to most chat programs these days

@cesese @00dani if something isn't an alternative because of how much more limited and and worse they are, don't recommend them as alternatives, especially if you haven't used them much. people have limited patience for wasting time trying out different chat applications that don't actually suit their needs in the slightest. tox is something that doesn't deserve to get recommended to anyone in its current state unfortunately

@shpuld @00dani ? For most users needs, I think it's suitable though? Anyway I was just pointing out that alternatives exist (I've found at least 3 easily), if you don't like them it doesn't mean they aren't alternatives

@cesese @shpuld @00dani This, there are dozens of programs that do more or less what Discord does, it's important to point them all out

@cesese @00dani no they don't cover the main use cases of something like discord at all (big group chats with polished interface, voice chat, one on one chats, all in the same package), they don't count as alternatives.

personally I'd really love to see discord die and I've quit using it years ago, but I can't recommend any free software as a straight up alternative for anyone still using it without feeling like I'm talking out of my ass. I just use irc and mumble to cover some of the same needs but that's two programs instead of one and I'm having to host my own mumble server too, and even then it's much more limited

matrix is the closest to a discord 'alternative', but it's not great either, not something I would recommend to my friends or anyone else, irc works better even with 10x less features

@shpuld uhh they provide what you ask (group chat, group calls, "polished interface" (looks more like skype but eh why not), all in one package)

@cesese tox is kind of a garbage fire where voice chat is useless if the connection isn't stellar between the participants, it barely works, I won't comment on jami or wire because I haven't used them, but they seem worth checking out.
@cesese I know I sound more argumentative than I intended to, I don't want to defend discord in the slightest, but I don't think it's useful to blame people either if they feel like there aren't good alternatives, it's better to focus effort into building better alternatives instead (like me and other devs are doing with fediverse). recommending software based on screenshots and feature listings without actually using it extensively first isn't too helpful
@shpuld @cesese it's like people recommending inkscape as an illustrator alternative

@shpuld "recommending software based on screenshots and feature listings without actually using it extensively first isn't too helpful"
Sorry if i sounded like I *recommended* them, I was just using them as examples
Saying there is no FLOSS alternative to discord is a lie, even if the alternatives aren't perfect
I was also kinda saying that because I had a lot of conversations about there not being alternatives, and people wanting to code an alternative. I think it'd be better to contribute to already-existing projects than make new ones from scratch.

@cesese it depends on what you count as alternative, if it has similar features on paper but no one is using it and it works like crap, it's near impossible to get people to use it. I totally understand why people would rather start from scratch when the existing projects aren't looking too hot, I'm sure most people who want to start a new project have looked into the existing ones first (like lain wanted to fix gnu social at first but the code was a mess so it was much better to start from scratch)

@cesese I think the reason people say there's no alternative to discord is because there's no other popular platform, alternatives are sadly only as good as their are people using them, as great as they are otherwise

@immychan no, I know people whose excuse for staying on discord is they can't find a floss alternative
:geblobcatshrug:

@immychan when we switched from skype to discord, we didn't wait for people to be on discord

@cesese @immychan
I know a bunch of alternatives but none of them really replicate the "Discord Experience" which is probably what they want to stick with:
- Groups of channels
- With embedded media uploads
- And custom emoji and reactions
- And voice chat

@cesese @immychan Matrix sorta comes close but it feels so unpolished and is a pain to run server-side.

Mumble however absolutely kills Discord's voice chat so there's that.

@polychrome @cesese That's true, but equally the 'Discord Experience' to me just means a junk web app with a not very good UI, despite the features it does have, the program I can think of that comes closest to that criteria would probably be Telegram, it has all of those features except for channel groups

@immychan @cesese it IS a junk web program but sadly it still performs slicker than Riot 🤷

The upside of it being a web program is that you don't have to use the native client, can avoid some of their snooping by using the browser.

Anyway this puts a goal post for the floss alternative. Telegram does a good show by demonstrating Qt can do all of this nicely.

@polychrome @cesese I'm not sure about that, in my experience Riot is less polished but a lot easier and less finiky to use, I'm not sure about the server side though

And that's true, using the browser exclusively to access Discord might be something I look into

And I agree Telegram is kind of the gold standard for a chatting client, as well as the various XMPP clients

@polychrome @cesese @immychan so what you're saying is that we should add groups and voice chat to pleroma
@lain @polychrome @cesese @immychan I want to login with my phone number and reactions should be paid-for content.

@cesese Really? But there are so many :/, generally people I know are Discord apologists, it's not a good service but people will try to justify it to themselves anyway, I know a smaller number of people, myself included, who would gladly ditch Discord but have a lot of friends who use it exclusively

@cesese they arent discord alternative

Skype at most lol

@Miaourt @cesese Also Matrix should do the job right ? As far as I know it's pretty similar

@Ytrezar @cesese and no embeded jitsi meet conference calls aren't fitting really well for the voice channel feature

@Miaourt that's the same, people went to discord because skype was bad :geblobcatshrug:

@cesese yeah, and because mumble and teamspeak "where too complicated and costly to host"

Low latency speaking rooms is what leds discord's growth at first imho, before it becoming the new irc

"Yo, how about Matrix/Riot..."
"WAAAH WAAAH THE UI IS BAD BAD UI WAAAAAH"

@cesese
@cesese Tox holds the world record for worst chat client ever made. I will ask you one more time:
Why is there no altenative?
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