Back when I wrote plain old Javascript: "Alright I've implemented everything except the Javascript part. It'll be a mess, I totally don't want to work on that."

After switching to : "Alright I've implemented everything except the Elm part. Meh, not in the mood."

I don't think there'll ever be a time where I look forward to writing dynamic front-end stuff.

@ayo if only all people developing making websites felt like that...

@Wolf480pl It does result in rushed and awkward UIs though.

But indeed, there are rather many developers whose motivation works in the exact opposite direction, resulting in sites that suck in different ways...

@Miaourt @ayo
vndb.org
- 200kB, of which 100KB is images, and only 18kB is JS
- displays some useful dynamically generated content

svelte.dev
- 1.5MB, of which over 500kB is JS
- a landing / marketing page that might've been static HTML

are you sure it's a good alternative?

@Wolf480pl @ayo the goal is to not suffer from manual vanilla JS maintenance, and have all the features of multimegabytes frameworks (react, vue, etc)

Also svelte.dev contain a friking svelte REPL in the page lol

Yet dunno how they managed to have 500ko or js, mine is not even around 30kb uncompressed

(check Rich Harris talk, ya will see its quite a smart one lol, that somehiw hate how much JS and bulk all web app have, yet accepted that its necessary to be in that js world today)

@ayo You can always embrace the darkness and write all dynamic frontend code on the backend, then stream the results/changes to browser via a websocket.

There are frameworks for that.

@glaurungo I love that concept and I've played with Phoenix LiveView before. It's not quite as flexible and efficient as I'd like, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

@ayo Right direction, might have been introducing sensible languages on the browser side of things, instead of "maybe having some things that will compile to js"

But Live View is pretty cool.

@glaurungo @ayo
Right direction would be introducing HTML elements (or other declarative means) which cover 90% of legitimate JS usecases while not allowing the website to arbitrarily track the user or hog the CPU.

Maybe even some kind of control plane / data plane split.
If all the code that does the heavy lifting was part of the browser, it'd be more likely to be optimized (I hope).

@Wolf480pl @ayo
Before you realize that mobile app ecosystem is so messed up (or messed app), that you really are tempted to make webpages instead of native apps, so you don't have to deal with all the bs.

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