@Shamar @Wolf480pl @grainloom

Yes, everyone has to learn different languages.

However, starting with C means that you know how everything works directly with memory. You learn to implement very complex functionality (with ugly syntax, such as pointers to functions and whatnot) but you know how it works on a low level.

Then you go to other languages, and you learn algorithms, and design algorithms and think in several languages. That's the goal.

@rice @Shamar @grainloom meh, I'd say a better starting language would be something with GC. IMO it's better to learn how to program in a safe environment that will gently tell you about your errors instead of doing some undefined behaviour or a mysterious segfault.

The first programming language I tried to learn was either PHP or Clipper, haven't coded much in it tho. Then I learned some heavily-object-oriented language used by some niche game engine.

@rice @Shamar @grainloom None of them required manual memory management.

When I started learning C++, I already knew very well how to express what I want to do as a formal program. split my code into functions, and basics of OO. So I only needed to learn the syntax, the pointers, and the specifics of C++ classes.

@rice @Shamar @grainloom
now that I think of it, maybe I should've learned C instaed of C++, but C++ was what I needed at the moment.

@Wolf480pl @Shamar @grainloom

Fair enough. I just want people to understand how things work on a low level, AND be able to think on high levels of abstraction.

@rice @Shamar @grainloom
Yeah, me too. But learning the low level stuff doesn't need to be the first thing one learns, and it'd be too much at once IMO.

@Wolf480pl @Shamar @grainloom

Oh, definitely doesn't have to be. Just my observation on what has worked for me personally and what I'd like to see in others.

@rice
Starting with C means you learn the C runtime - typically the unix interface to the C runtime. It's a not quite right to think that C is how computers work.
@Shamar @Wolf480pl @grainloom

@mikeburns @rice @Shamar @grainloom
AFAIK there are many things, eg. pointer arithmetic, that work the same in C and machine code.

@mikeburns @Shamar @Wolf480pl @grainloom This is true! It just helps to understand the underlying processes better. Eventually when you learn lots of other languages on top, you just have a better understanding how to make things simpler, because you know the underlying processes, too.

@rice @mikeburns @Shamar @grainloom
Yeah, what's important here is that most of other languages are actually implemented on top of C runtime.

@Wolf480pl @mikeburns @Shamar @grainloom Either way, I don't want this to turn into a big argument. It's a fact that understanding pointer arithmetic and how dynamic memory allocation works and whatnot helps out a lot with other languages down the line (not for web, but other things. i don't think that web devs should learn C necessarily). Not trying to say that C is better than other languages.

@rice @Shamar @mikeburns @Wolf480pl IMHO web devs would learn a lot from C because they would realize that what they are trying to do in JS is such a waste of resources and could be done much better in native code.

@mikeburns

Actually I do not remember much of the #Unix interface (writing a POSIX emulation library took me a while, and it's not yet perfect nor complete), but I still program my OS in C.

Its libc has been ported from Plan 9 and is pretty different from the C standard library.

In #Plan9 (and in #Jehanne too), the C runtime is the operating system.

However, to understand how #computers work, one should learn #Assembly.

Not as a first language, though.

@Wolf480pl @rice @grainloom

@Shamar @mikeburns @Wolf480pl @grainloom I think Python -> C (all concepts) in combination with Assembly -> other languages (Rust, functional langs, etc) makes sense if you want to learn fundamental in-depth.

@rice @Shamar @mikeburns @grainloom
But isn't Python's dynamic typing and scoping going to make learning harder?
OTOH, it has a REPL, which helps a lot.

@rice @mikeburns @Wolf480pl @grainloom

Actually every time I plan to teach my eldest daughter how to program, Python is the first language that comes to mind.

I don't really love #Python, it's a complex language (but... actually I do not like most programming languages I use 🤦‍♂️ ).

Still in its set of features, it's something that make it seems educational.

I don't know why. Maybe the balance between libraries' power and learning curve... don't know.

And I'd welcome alternatives.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @mikeburns @rice Lua for first language? Or Ruby?

@grainloom @rice @mikeburns @Wolf480pl

Last time I read about Ruby it was a lot of "WTF!?!?" (too untyped for my taste and not as powerful as Python on the desktop).

I've never really studied Lua, but what I've read about seems pretty interesting (at least it's small!).

Does it have binding for some GUI library or toolkit so that one can hack something rapidly (just to catch attention)?

@Shamar @grainloom @rice @mikeburns
AFAIK there's Love2D which is a 2D game engine which you can script in Lua.

And yeah, I like how small the Lua spec is, and how I can fit the have whole mental model of the language in my short-term memory.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @mikeburns @rice

It definitely has one for WxWidgets and probably for others (I haven't really looked) but there is also Love2D instead of GUI programming, which might be even more fun.

@grainloom @rice @mikeburns @Shamar
oh, and there's conky, which can be scripted with lua and has cairo bindings, so you can draw fancy CPU graphs and whatnot. Tho, for a beginner, Love2D or WxWidgets will probably be more fun I guess...

@Wolf480pl @Shamar @mikeburns @rice

There is also Multi Theft Auto which is a GTA:SA mod built around Lua scripting.

(and probably a bunch of others)

@grainloom @rice @mikeburns @Wolf480pl

Grand thief auto is not the most educational game I'm planning to play with my daughter though.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @mikeburns @rice
Good point.

@Shamar @grainloom @rice @mikeburns so you are planning to play it with your daughter? :P

@teqwve @mikeburns @rice @grainloom @Shamar
you mean modding GTA in coq?

@Wolf480pl @Shamar @rice @mikeburns @teqwve

It might be possible in Idris??

@mikeburns @Wolf480pl @Shamar @rice Not necessarily, look at the Handmade Hero series for example. The guy writes his own stdblib for the most part.

@grainloom @rice @Shamar @mikeburns and linker and calling convention?