@pnathan for sure.
I haven’t gotten in to lisp machines yet, but I’m always down for discussion.
First, I want to say this: older computer systems - considered as systems - were generally more capable.
But to be clear, they were limited in use for those who didn't take an interest in learning them. I'm talking about things that weren't Windows 3.1+.
@ajroach42 @ciaby This was the Great Debate that was largely won by Microsoft. "Everyone can 'use' a computer.". That is to say, everyone can operate the appliance with preinstalled software. *everyone*. Apple pioneered the notion, but it turns out to be the preferred mode for businesses, who really rather don't like having specialized experts.
When you have sysadmins, there are no driver problems. There are no printer problems. There are no problems, as a matter of fact: it's all been taken care of by the admins.
This is exactly how executives like it.
Apple does the same, with their iPhone.
Apple is the sysadmin, metaphorically.
I am employed as a support engineer and a sysadmin, and I still run in to driver issues, printer issues, etc.
I take care of them, eventually, when I can.
But, even after doing this for 10 years, I still encounter problems that I can't solve (because there isn't a solution.)
but the metaphor of Apple as sysadmin, I'll accept. I disagree with someone else admining my phone, but that's another issue.
Hi, I'm probably near the age of @pnathan, and while I'm not a lisper anymore (ages went from my emacs fluency) I agree with all he said.
To give some context, I'm a polyglot programmer currently working on a brand new operating system http://jehanne.io
Now, the assumption that you seem to share is that people cannot learn how to program. I used to think this too.
Now however I realized that it's like we were scribas of Ancient Egypt arguing that people cannot write.
sorry for digging up this old thread, but I have one remark that's been on my mind since I saw your post:
I knew how to read and write when I was 4. I don't remember how I learned it, but I guess I wanted to learn it, or found it fun.
Are not all people like that? Do other people only learn to read when forced to at school?
Is there a correlation between programmers and people who learnt to read before school?
Would homeschooling be better? In the best case it probably would, but what about the average case and worst case? Would homeschooling-as-default reinforce the divide between the rich and the poor?
Or maybe we should go for master-and-padawan model, where you learn by helping someone do what you want to learn?
@ajroach42 @Shamar @ciaby @pnathan @Wolf480pl Part of the problem is that bureaucracies are extremely bad at producing high performance when results are difficult to measure. This is how we get bad teachers who can't be fired, because the bureaucracy can only fire based on easily measurable things, and the unions won't allow measurement of even things that can be measured, often for good reasons.
@ajroach42 @Shamar @ciaby @pnathan @Wolf480pl And people who would be really good teachers often end up doing something else because they don't want to work in a system that sucks the life out of them.
There are bureaucracies that do a better job of educating than the average US school district. I'd submit that none of them do a great job of educating. Education really needs to be continuous and ambient.
@Wolf480pl @ajroach42 @Shamar @ciaby @pnathan Ah sorry what I meant was that in general I don't like the class of argument I myself was trying to make, which is that just because solution X works for country Y that doesn't mean it will work for country Z because we're different" without pointing to the exact ways that there are differences. In particular scale is often used as a difference that requires no explanation even though IMO you have to show WHY something won't scale.
@Wolf480pl @ajroach42 @Shamar @ciaby @pnathan I'm sure that's true. One common problem that I think is pretty evident in the US is that people think of education as being something that happens in school, that's the school's/government's responsibility, rather than everyone's responsibility and happening everywhere and all the time.
Welcome to your niu world ! We are a cute and loving international community Ｏ(≧▽≦)Ｏ !